How to Overcome Trauma and Advocate For Your Health

Intro:

Welcome to Dr. Ruscio, DC radio, providing practical and science-based solutions to feeling your best. To stay up to date on the latest topics, as well as all of our prior episodes, make sure to subscribe in your podcast player. For weekly updates, visit DrRuscio.com. That’s DRRUSCIO.com. The following discussion is for educational purposes only and is not intended to diagnose or treat any disease. Please do not apply any of this information without first speaking with your doctor. Now let’s head to the show.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Hey, everyone. I just had a great conversation with Michael Anthony from [Think] Unbroken. We’ll go to the audio here momentarily. The topic was trauma and Michael comes from a background of quite a bit of trauma and did an excellent job speaking to how we can get through trauma, how we can break the cycle of trauma, tools for overcoming prior trauma, and how to shift our mindset to put ourselves first, to heal, to not take things too seriously or in some cases too literally (meaning some who have a past traumatic history may be too prone to just listen to authority and not advocate for themselves). So overall, this was a very rich, deep, meaningful, and utilitarian conversation with Michael that I think you’ll enjoy. So, please do listen because there’s a lot of lessons here, even for those who have had little to no trauma. Even I, myself, as someone who comes from a background of little to no trauma, found this to be containing of a few important reminders just for keeping your head on straight your [and] priorities in alignment. So a great conversation with Michael.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

One of the things that we discussed on this podcast that I want to tie into the clinic is how important it is to advocate for yourself and not just take “insert X authority here” and their opinion as gospel. This is why I’m so happy about the work that we’re doing at the clinic, especially, but not limited to, as it pertains to the thyroid. We are oftentimes where people will go for a second opinion because maybe they saw their endocrinologist, got one opinion, saw a naturopathic doctor or a functional doctor, got a different opinion, neither one of those seemed to really fit or felt like they were right.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

And this is one area where I and we are happy to help people speak up on their behalf and advocate for their betterment [and] for a more efficacious, practical science-based way of looking at thyroid health. Also, including of course, gut health. But I think thyroid is one of the areas where people get some of the worst opinions. I mean, gut health, I suppose, isn’t terribly different. And it’s not to knock the field too much but I just want to call balls and strikes as I see them. So, in any case, a reminder that if you’re in need of help for that self-advocacy the clinic is [always] here for a second opinion. And with that, we’ll now go to the conversation with Michael Anthony. And this was a fantastic conversation. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Dr. Ruscio, DC radio. This is Dr Michael Ruscio, today here with Michael Anthony, and we are going to be unpacking the topic of trauma. And this is a broad topic, but this is something that I’m really curious to pick Michael’s brain on and get a better idea where he can help us deal with trauma because no matter who you are, you’ve probably got some degree. Sure, some have much more than others, but we all have some to deal with. And the better we can take that, I think, it sure helps everything else in life that you may not be able to change much easier to deal with. So, Michael, it’s good to have you here and thanks for being on the show.

Michael Anthony:

Yeah, man. It’s my pleasure. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Absolutely. Do you want to give people…because I thought about reading your bio [beforehand], but I feel like you could give us a much more colored or interesting synopsis on your background and how you got to be where you are today.

Michael Anthony:

Yeah, for sure, man. And I’ll give you the elevator pitch, couple minutes here. So I was born in Indianapolis in the eighties. My mom was a drug addict and alcoholic. In fact, when I was four years old she cut off my right index finger. So that lays you right into the background immediately. When I was six, she married my stepfather who was also an alcoholic and he was super abusive. Like he’d kick the crap out of my brothers and I. [He] put me in the hospital multiple times. Never met my real father and spent the majority of my childhood like deeply in poverty and homeless. And in fact, I lived with over 30 different families from the time I was 8 until I was 12. When my grandmother adopted me when I was 12, you would think that would be a godsend and, to some extent, it was. But I’m biracial, black and white. And she was an old racist white lady from a town in Tennessee you’ve never heard of. In fact so much so, we had a copy of Hitler’s autobiography, “Mein Kampf” on our kitchen table.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Oh geez. Wow.

Michael Anthony:

And so yeah, imagine “insert identity crisis”, right? And that led to me being a drug addict at 12 years old. I was getting high every day popping pills, by 13 I was getting drunk, and at 15 I got expelled from high school for selling drugs. I didn’t know what to do, man. I was just like, this is my life, this is chaos. And so I’m selling drugs, breaking in houses, stealing cars, running from the cops, getting shot at, like all just the craziest things. And to me, that was just normal. That was just reality. And I got put into this last chance program [and] still did not graduate high school. And, in fact, what happened is I went to summer school and my summer school teacher just goes, “you know what? We just want you the hell out of here. Here’s your diploma. Good luck.”

Michael Anthony:

And I was trying to figure out what to do with my life. I was working at some warehouse job, literally putting microchips into motherboards all day for like 12 hours a day and watching just desperation in people’s eyes, man. Like, that’s the place where dreams go to die. Right? And I ended up getting fired (probably because I was stoned) and I’m sitting in my car and I’m like, all right, hold on, what is the solution for poverty? What’s the solution for homelessness? What’s the solution for abuse? How do I change this? And at the time, my thought was like, “oh, it’s money.”

Michael Anthony:

And I made a declaration of myself in that moment. I said, “by the time I’m 21, I want to make a hundred thousand dollars a year, legally.” And the legal part was really important because I’ve been in handcuffs. I have family in prison for life. And as of today, my three childhood best friends have been murdered. So I knew where I was going if I didn’t figure out something different. And I just started learning skills. I ended up getting a job at a fast food joint, fast forward a couple of years, and I ended up getting a job with a Fortune 10 company—no high school diploma, no college education. Started making that six figures but then my life became a complete disaster because that old adage about this idea that money shows who you truly are, well, that happened to me.

Michael Anthony:

And so I’m sitting here thinking, “oh, money is the solution,” but I’m still that hurt, lost little boy. And so by the time I’m heading into 26 years old, I’m 350 pounds, smoking two packs of cigarettes a day, drinking myself to sleep, cheating on my girlfriend, and I put a gun in my mouth.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Wow.

Michael Anthony:

I was done. I was like, I give up. This money thing did not solve these problems. And the next morning I’m laying in bed—now, keep in mind, this is after arguably the worst day of my life—it’s 11 o’clock in the morning, I’m 350 pounds, I’m eating chocolate cake, and watching the CrossFit games. Like dude, if that’s not rock bottom, I don’t know what is. And I got up and I went and I looked at myself in the bathroom mirror.

Michael Anthony:

And I don’t understand, even to this day, why I did this, but I remembered as I looked in the mirror being eight years old and the water company had come and turned our water off—now look, they were always turning off our water, our electricity, our heat, it was another Tuesday—and this particular day I took this little blue bucket from the backyard, I walked across the street to our neighbor’s house, and for the first time I stole water. And I remember being like, “when I’m a grownup, this won’t be my life.” And look, it wasn’t financially. But again, in every way I was that hurt, lost little boy.

Michael Anthony:

And as I looked in the mirror and I realized I’d been breaking this promise to myself. I asked myself, “what are you willing to do to have the life that you want to have?” And the answer was: no excuses, just results. And what that really meant was I was no longer going to negotiate with myself. I was no longer going to play the victim. I was no longer going to let everyone else tell me who I should be. And almost 12 years later, man, here I am talking to you.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Gosh, there’s so much there to respond to and unpack. Where to begin? Well, the thing that I’m hoping to, if nothing else, get out of this conversation is helping those in our audience who have and maybe still are suffering with some degree of trauma. One of the things that we’ve observed at the clinic is some patients fall more into fear and worry about their health, especially when they’ve come from a background of child abuse of some sort or just maybe traumatic past relationship in their young adulthood or even in their adulthood. And one of the things that we try to do is provide a voice of reason, to some extent, optimism, and help people not fall into fear of food, fear of X, Y, Z disorder, go on Google and read the worst-case-scenario interpretation of your diagnosis from web MD and let that all fester.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

And I think a lot of the same or similar concepts probably apply. And one thing you said in particular, I wanted to queue in on, which is not giving a F. And I do think for some people who care so much about their health, that functions as a double-edged sword, because they will listen so much to all the health gurus and whatnot. And if those gurus are not giving practical or reasonable or balanced information, you can fall into a really fearful place. And I do think because of that, there’s this almost willingness to disregard opinion, certain stereotypes, or beliefs that can be helpful for this group of people. Anything there resonate or maybe that you can weave into helping people who might be in a similar position to that?

Michael Anthony:

Well, I think that there’s a threefold thought process that is unraveling in real time with you thinking about this. On one hand, you have an experience like mine in which I was never taken to the doctor, I was never cared for, and so in my late teens and early, even honestly even my late, twenties, I just never took care of myself. If I was sick, If I needed to go to the dentist, if I was hurt…At one point when I was like 12 I’d broke my foot and I was walking around on a broken foot for like three weeks because no one took me to the doctor. And so in my head, I just had equated that to be like, “oh, it’s not that big of a deal. It’s fine.” So I think that’s one approach, one thought process anyway.

Michael Anthony:

The other is watching my mother, for instance, who for sure had Munchausen syndrome. And going through that process of her continually and constantly being under medical care. And then I think there’s the other side, which becomes the fear part, which I think is a really spectacular word to use to describe that emotional response, is we are so in our sympathetic nervous system all the time, in fight or flight, that we are willing to do literally anything to feel healthier or feel normal. And I feel like I’ve like, probably all of us really, all balance a little bit of each and all of that. But I think one of the most important things that we have to be able to step into, especially if you’ve been through traumatic experiences, is to advocate for yourself and for you to make the decisions about your health based on information and supporting evidence, as opposed to “I listen to a podcast,” right? Which I think is very, very dangerous.

Michael Anthony:

One of the things, just from a statistical standpoint and a survey standpoint, in the nineties Kaiser Permanente, Dr. Felitti, and the California Center for Disease Control did the ACE survey. And what they found is that on average, about 83% of people in this country have had an adverse childhood experience. Now I would argue it’s probably much higher when you factor in non-reports and homes like mine that have a don’t ask, don’t tell policy. And so when you consider the longterm detrimental health ramifications…I mean, the evidence points to it, I would argue and say this is inconclusive, I would love to see this research done at depth, but you can see some indicative factors that make you go, huh? For instance, from a statistical standpoint, you’re much more likely to have early onset heart attacks, pulmonary embolisms, diabetes, asthma, heart attacks, and dementia, depending on where you fall on this scale.

Michael Anthony:

And there are some research that points even to this idea that you could be anywhere from 15 to 20 years of having a shortened life span based on where you fall on this scale as well, going through whatever terms of abuse someone may go through. And so now I think that it’s really important to understand the research because when I fell into this, I was probably about 30 years old. So about seven years ago, I came across this research and I was like, “oh, this is fascinating because I have all of these health issues. Well, where do they come from?” It’s causation, it’s correlation. But then it’s the other part of, if the sympathetic nervous system is about the fight or flight and the parasympathetic is about the rest/digest/recover, and people that have survived traumatic experience typically are in that sympathetic, well then you need to understand if you’re always in this hyper aroused, cortisol-driven state, your body has no time to recover, to heal, to go through that process.

Michael Anthony:

And so I think it’s really important to not only look at the research, but advocate for your health. And if you are sick, have the conversation with your doctor, find out all the information, don’t jump right to a prescription. Now, again, this is going to be different for everybody, but I think it’s really important, especially if you’ve been through traumatic experiences to speak up. And that’s one of the things that we struggle with the most.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

So you’re finding that in people with a history of abuse, they tend to be a little more timid and let’s say their doctor says “X, Y, Z,” they don’t push back, they don’t ask questions, they take it too much at face value?

Michael Anthony:

Yeah. Well I think in this society as a whole we tend to do that. But I’ll give you a great example. Think about this. The most dangerous thing that I and many trauma survivors could do in our adolescents and developmental years is to have an opinion, right? One of the things that hit me really hard about a year ago was that I don’t think trauma is necessarily about the cuts, the scars, the bruises, right? It’s really the theft of identity. And so when you’re stripped of the ability to be you, you will always placate because it’s safety. And that’s the thing that people don’t really wrap their heads around because your brain is about survival, right? You know this, it’s the primary function.

Michael Anthony:

So you look at that and the brain says, “all right, I’m going to take this stimuli, I’m going to make meaning of it, I’m going to put it on a shelf. Things that are dangerous (i.e. being me, having an opinion, speaking about my wants, needs, and interest) I’m not going to do that because that means I’m in jeopardy. Things like placating, things like bending who I am for survival, that’s who I will be.” And then, so on a long enough timeline, you’re 22, 34, 45 years old and that still holds true that you don’t speak up for yourself because now it’s become, for lack of a better term, an autonomic response until you actually understand it.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

This reminds me of the book “Outliers” by [Malcom Gladwell], I recently read and I highly recommend it by the way, it’s a great book, and he cites this well, numerous lines of evidence that show no agreement between IQ and someone’s outcome or status in life. There was this one study in particular, I think it was a Harvard longitudinal study, on gifted children who all had high IQs and they tracked them for 20 years or perhaps even longer.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

And what was so interesting about this study, they did not find that the high IQ kids consistently perform better than kids of moderate or lower IQs, but they did find that the family that they came from seemed to be the greatest predictor. And as they probed deeper into this data set, they found that the parents would teach their children assertiveness in the families where the children did better. And there would be this appeal to authority and inability to speak up a propensity toward placating, like you mentioned, in the group that even though they had higher IQ, they had lower achievements. So I think you make an excellent few points there in that people need to advocate for their healthcare and not just take things at face value. And if something, maybe as one example of an application, if something feels off to you, don’t just accept that as gospel, but do some research, get a second opinion, what have you.

Michael Anthony:

Yeah, I agree with that. And I’ve read “Outliers,” it’s a phenomenal book. I’ll give you a great example of this. So in February I ended up having to have hernia surgery and I went and got three opinions just to make sure, right. You know what I mean? Because I was like, I really don’t want to have surgery again. But you know what, if three people tell you, then they’re probably right. And I think that’s one of the really important aspects of this is going through that process and not just going to the quick fix and instead doing your due due diligence and learning and being willing to also when the time…Here’s probably something you see as well, you’ll help someone, you’ll give them what they need to create the change to step back into health, to get back to being normative, and they won’t follow through.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Right.

Michael Anthony:

You see that all the time. And I think that that’s the parlay of this. It’s one thing to ask the other opinions and to advocate for yourself, it’s another thing to actually take care of yourself. Which I think can be incredibly uncomfortable for people because they say, “well, am I really that important? Does it matter?” And you can look at research that proves people are more likely to spend money on a prescription for their animal than they are for themselves. Now there’s something about that. That’s asinine. When you take into consideration that if you don’t take care of yourself first, how do you take care of others or other things? And so I think one of the really, really important parts of this conversation is to actually follow through and take care of yourself.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Love it. You remind me of this quote from Jim Rohn, where he would, he would criticize the old saying, “I’ll take care of you, if you take care of me,” and he states that it would be much more effective and better for everyone if we said, “I’ll take care of me for you.” And I think that’s a much better way of coming at this. And, hopefully for our audience, a good reminder that if you haven’t taken that extra step, whatever it is that you’re considering for your own health, for your own wellbeing, you are probably the most valuable asset that you bring to your children, to your spouse. And keeping you in good shape is really important. I think you make such an excellent reminder, Michael, because for me that’s always come second nature but for some people—I can think of some family actually—who have more of a martyr-like mentality. And I understand that. And I think it comes, of course, from a good place, but sadly, I’ve seen some people that I really care about and love deteriorate because they always put everyone before themselves. And at some point your body starts to fail and break down because of that.

Michael Anthony:

Yeah. I mean, I’ve seen that too. I even saw that in my own life for a period of time. And it’s really about, you can go back to baseline principles with that in a sense, it’s about accountability. And that’s one of the things that’s really difficult for people—personal responsibility. There’s also, I hate to say it, but this was my case, there was a victimhood to it where I was like, “oh, I’m just not going to take care of myself. Why do I matter? I’m going to play the victim.” And so you have to be willing to not do that and say, “no, I am going to take care of myself. I do matter. I will do what I need to do and not make excuses about it.”

Michael Anthony:

And also, I think, this is really an interesting part of the conversation as well is to not feel shame or guilt about taking care of yourself. Because if you don’t take care of yourself, who’s going to? And it’s one of those things where as even in my own personal journey, I have made a declaration that health is my word for the year. And that means doing whatever it takes, whether that’s dentist or surgery or proper recovery after physical endeavors or whatever it is. It’s my health has become prominent. Because one of the things I realized is, as someone who is in a high demand position, always traveling, always on the move, always speaking, coaching, whatever, how in the hell am I ever going to help people if I can’t help me first? And for a long time I played the victim because look, I’ll be real with you, you don’t get to 350 pounds, smoking two packs a day and drinking yourself to sleep because you’re taking care of yourself. Right? And so I think that there is an aspect here of pushing yourself, of following through on your promises that you need to make to yourself, and, most importantly, just being okay with the fact that it’s perfectly reasonable to take care of your health.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Yeah. Well said. And I love that, “don’t become a victim, don’t give up.” This is also something we try to echo on the podcast, which is, even the healthiest people I know, even people who are very high achieving athletes, they have times when they feel crappy. And the way I look at the health journey, I wouldn’t say this is a perfect analogy, but it’s almost like being a surfer where you have these periods where you’re on the perfect wave, everything’s going great, it’s amazing, and then you fall off, you’re in the white water, it’s scary, stinks. You got to battle your way out to get back to being on the wave. So there’s these periods where you’re riding that wave, you’re feeling great. There’s these periods where you don’t feel great, you feel like you fell off, like you’re underneath the white water. When am I going to come up for air? And I think perhaps just knowing that ahead of time and being able to tell yourself that when you’re under the water, so to speak, can help prevent one from freaking out and thinking like, “oh my God, I was feeling good now I’m feeling bad and does this mean I’m always going to feel bad?” and really go to that dark place where hopefully you don’t succumb to that and give up and then slide into that complacency.

Michael Anthony:

Yeah. There’s an ebb and flow to it for sure. And I love the reference about surfing because it’s so spot on. Because you’re going to have days where everything is as good as you could imagine. And then the next day you’re going to be like, “oh, I feel like I get hit by a car.” And I think that you take it, you roll with it. You rest when you need to rest, you move forward when you need to move forward. But also, I would say, be cautious about this idea about self-care because it’s perpetrated in this way, I think especially today, in which self-care becomes leverage for not following through not doing what you need to do. And so you really need to get a lot of clarity and truthfulness with yourself about what you need in the moment.

Michael Anthony:

Because I’ve come to find in my own life that most days I can continue to go. I’m not yet at that point where I actually need to like pause or take a break. It’s just, I don’t want to do the thing. You know what I mean? And then on days where I’m like, “oh, wait a second, no, my body’s exhausted, mentally I’m not where I should be, It’s been a long road trip. Okay, cool. I’m going to hang out on the couch, read a book, and drink tea all day.” And so I think that comes into play. And also a vertical in that would be like when it comes to injury, like if you’re hurt. So many people will keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing, but you’re better to rest today if you’re actually injured, then you are to push through and then, next thing you know, you’re out for six months or worse.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

And this I think is more salient for type A’s, which I include myself in, who legit I can speak for myself will feel guilty if I take too much time off, if I rest. I like doing things and the work that we’re doing at the clinic, I feel to be very important, I feel like we have an impact in the world that we’re trying to make that is for the betterment of others, and I see the suffering that we help to alleviate. And so it makes it very challenging to put down your sword, so to speak. And in this, in this battle for people’s health. But if one is observant enough times of pushing yourself over the edge and then realizing, well half a day of rest three weeks ago would’ve prevented the need for two days of rest now, I think, at least for me, it’s been helpful to not feel guilty. And to be okay with relenting a little bit, as you said, for that period of recovery.

Michael Anthony:

Yeah, I relate to that so much. And especially myself being type A, is there’s the go, go, go mentality that I have that is from me. Like I don’t let outside sources bring that into my life, I just constantly go “do I actually need to rest?” And on those days, not that long ago, it was like, no, I don’t need to rest, tough it out, figure it out. Probably about, I think it was about six years ago, I had done a really intense double Murph CrossFit workout, I don’t know if you’ve done CrossFit or not, but my quads, my hamstrings, my calfs were so tight I could barely move. And the next day I went to play softball and I remember someone asked me, “Hey man, you’re not walking really well. Do you want a pinch runner? Because it’s freaking softball and it doesn’t matter.’ And I was like, “no, dude, it’s fine.”

Michael Anthony:

And literally I hit this ball into left field, I definitely have space to get two bases, and halfway up the first baseline I tore my calf muscle. And it was brutal. And for the next, I think it was something like 12 weeks, I was totally immobile. And so my point in telling the story is it’s so incredibly important to listen to your body because it’s not going to lead you astray. It’s the same as like your gut instinct when you are in this situation [and] you’re like, “I shouldn’t be here. I don’t like the vibe. I’m not feeling it. Something about this situation is off.” And every time you don’t listen to yourself, what happens? You find out you should have. And I think that applies here, especially in your physical health. Listen to yourself, listen to what your body needs, give it to yourself because if you don’t, well obviously you’re going to be running around in situations you might…

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Yeah, that sounds painful. That’s a good reminder for people to take some time to relax. And there is a compromise here, at least as far as I found, where, okay, I’ll go for a walk outside instead of doing the heavy deadlifts or the sprint workout or trying to run a half a mile as fast as I absolutely can, recover for three minutes, do that again. Instead of something in the red line, do something where, okay, you’re moving. Let’s say you have a hard time just lounging on the couch. Fine. I hear you. But there is a middle ground. And I think this is a good reminder just to plant in here, that movement in nature is incredibly therapeutic. So for people who are struggling with the same thing, it sounds like you and I both struggle with, Michael, just remember that a walk in the forest or any nature setting can be very good for your health. You won’t feel like you’re just sitting there and that can be a good compromise.

Michael Anthony:

Yeah. A hundred percent.

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Michael Anthony:

And also like who here’s something that I think about all the time—who cares? If you need a break and that’s what you need and the hardest thing that you do is a walk around the block, what is your measurement for whether or not you had a successful day? And I think we hold ourselves on such this high pedestal against other people and it’s like, you don’t have to. You should do what you want to do. You should do what you need to do and be okay with giving that to yourself because you’re not Superman. Because he’s not real. So you should probably be a little bit more diligent in giving yourself some grace.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

My cousin used to say, even Superman has to walk around as Clark Kent sometimes. That always stuck with me. This is back in my early college years when I got really into body building and you would do eat a bunch of calories in the winter and bulk up. And then I never wanted to stop doing that because I liked being big. And that was a very well-placed remark by him. And also you giving yourself some grace to not need to do what other people are doing, like we’ve talked about this on the podcast before, you may have a friend who does really well on diet X (I think a good example of this would be low carb) and you may not do well in low carb. But if you keep trying to do it because Mary Sue did so well on it but you’re depressed and having insomnia and fatigue, well be okay with the fact that you’re different and you don’t have to do what everyone else is doing.

Michael Anthony:

Yeah. That’s a great point. Like on the keto diet, I’m a monster, dude. Like stay away from me.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Good monster, bad monster?

Michael Anthony:

Bad, bad. Well, you know what, and I would try all the diets, I would try all the things, and on keto, like everyone talks about like the keto flu, well I get that but worse. And so that started—actually, I love that we’re having this conversation because that comes full circle—because I would listen to these podcasts, I’d listen to these shows, I would hop on Google, it’d be like, “oh, keto is the thing, do that because you’re going to feel great.” And in the midst of feeling terrible, I’d be like, “no, no, no it’s just keto flu.” But it’s been three months, dude. You know what I mean?

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Exactly. Yes. No, I’m so glad you say that because that’s one of the things we try to point out repeatedly is most things I think are within reasonability to trial, but I really think the, “well it’s the peeling of the onion and if you have keto flu at week two, it’ll probably go away, that probably means, insert speech theory here, your mitochondria are really in bad shape and they’re repairing and if you give them a month then your mitochondria will come back online and the keto flu will break.” I haven’t found that to be true in the vast majority of cases. Usually, if it’s the right thing, within the first couple weeks you’ll at least have a sense that it’s helping you. And yeah, like you said, three months in the keto flu, no, like clearly it’s time to pivot and do something different.

Michael Anthony:

Yeah. A hundred percent. And that’s what it’s about is just that, listening, doing something different. And what I think has been really interesting in my own journey is just a willing to explore. And some things I really align with and some things I don’t. I mean, name a healing modality in mental health and I’ve done it—from CBT to gestalt and men’s group therapy, men’s group trauma therapy, EMDR, NLP, Reiki, body work—like you name it, I’ve done it all. And some of those things really work well for me. And some of those things I’ll never do again. And I think that’s a big part of it too, is not being dogmatic about the approach to what it is that you need to do with your life.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Well, this is one of the things that I’m so happy about that we’re doing at the clinic where we have a whole bunch of therapies that are potential but we’re not going to dode with any one for too long. And we’re going to try to tick through these quickly. Let’s try item one, give yourself a few weeks, is it working, yes or no? If no, move on. And if you repeat that, you can get someone to the point where you found a therapy or therapies that help them, and you haven’t made them feel wrong. “Well, if it’s not helping you, it’s because you’re not going gluten free hard enough or you’re not going low carb hard enough or you probably didn’t have the right ratio while potassium to magnesium,” these things, which, there’s sure a time and a place for some nuances to make sure that your application is correct, but given your application is generally correct, then we want to tick through these so that we can get you to the therapies that help you and not prolong that experimental period before you start feeling better.

Michael Anthony:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think there’s something to be said about the willingness to explore because we find, at least in my own experience, like when people come into coaching with me, they’re like, “well, I already tried this” and I’m like, “yeah, but did you try this?” And sometimes it’s the opposite of what you think that’s going to work is going to be the thing that works. And I think there is a space for the conversation about being open minded, about being willing to really like sit in the ignorance of not knowing. And so many people will not step into it because of the fear of the unknown and needing to have the answer already. But I’ve come to discover in my own life [that] I have never had a better understanding about something than when I actually do it.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

A hundred percent. Yeah. And you make a good point too, which is, I guess, maybe another way of saying this to some extent is relinquishing control to your coach, to your clinician, to your consultant. Because one of the things that I think we all want to try to avoid is knowing enough about something to convince yourself not to follow instructions from someone who knows a lot more about that thing than you do. We don’t get much of that in the clinic. But when I was earlier in my practice and there wasn’t as much of, I guess, a reputation, then I would see this happen more often. Where I knew after doing this for what may have been three years in the practice, okay, I see 10 patients a day, been doing this for three years, I’ve seen what happens when we execute theory X and I had tried that for six months.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

But patient, let’s say Mary Sue again, she’s just reading about theory X and she’s jazzed about it. And she really wants to do it. And I’ve seen someone like her, let’s say a female who is going and has been, again, building on the low carb and she’s wondering why she can’t lose weight, she’s not sleeping well, and she’s depressed. And if you look at her timeline, a lot of this started when she got roped into keto, along with her CrossFit group. And it’s like, some of the guys in there can thrive on keto and be doing all this physical output but it crushed her. But she wants to go further into that. And I’ve seen this pattern so many times and I’m trying to explain it to her, but again, if she’s reading on message board or blog X, Y, Z, about all the benefits, then she may know enough about the benefits to convince herself she couldn’t possibly go moderate to high carb. So I guess just a good reminder for all of us to—if you’re confident in the person that you’re working with—follow their lead because, again, you may have just one snippet of data and that might be enough to really lead you down the wrong path.

Michael Anthony:

And that’s, what’s so difficult. I mean, you just don’t know. And there’s a million books, a million podcasts, a million everything. And there is a difficulty in, I believe, [the excess of information]. So I think about the excess of information in two ways: 1) it’s brilliant that we have so much and [2] it’s also simultaneously incredibly detrimental because we have so much. And I think it’s just really so much about trusting yourself, trusting the expert, hiring the appropriate people, and following through with that. Because you may find out, you’re like, “oh, lasagna is the thing that’s going to make my life better and then you’re like having lasagna all the day and you’re like, this is terrible. This is not making my life better.” And I think that’s just the thing is be willing to go through the unknown, be willing to sit down, consume the information, and make a decision about what you want. Because if you’re willing to do that, especially in your health, which in a hierarchy of needs, it should be prominent. Like health should be number one.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Amen to that.

Michael Anthony:

Because like, if I’m sick, if I don’t feel well, if I’m hurt, I cannot perform in the other areas of my life. […] When I was really at my lowest in this rock bottom moment, I mean, dude, I was eating McDonald’s freaking 10 times a week. You know what I mean? Like I was smoking two packs a day. Sometimes I was, I mean it was not uncommon, for me to drink like a fifth of rum on a Friday night. And you think that I’m operating…

Dr Ruscio, DC:

That’s a massive hangover.

Michael Anthony:

Well, it wasn’t because I was so used to it. And then I’d just have freaking McDonald’s for breakfast and I’d feel better. By the way, they’re going to sue me one day. I know this is going to happen. They’re freaking poison. Don’t eat McDonald’s. But that’s thing, how do you operate and function in a way that is productive, that creates a benefit in your life, where you can support yourself, your family, your children, your spouse, your community, your church, your neighborhood, if you are sick all the time because of the decisions that you’re making to poison yourself? And when health is not the number one…And look, that’s a hard thing, people are going to feel like they got smacked in the face just now. You’re making a decision to poison yourself. And part of that comes back to that advocacy for yourself.

Michael Anthony:

Because if you aren’t making a choice to be healthy, nobody’s going to do it for you. And I would argue being healthy is way more difficult than being unhealthy. Because you lose the convenience, you lose the mouth feels, you lose, blah, blah, blah. But man, on the other side of the difficulty of making the right choices, you have more stamina, more energy, more clarity, more thought, you have better relationships, better career, your finances are literally better, your sex life is better, everything is better. Because you put down the cigarettes and maybe you only drink a glass of wine a week and maybe you only ate McDonald’s once every six years. And that’s the thing, I’m going to say something that’s going to hit people and it’s not to be crass, it’s just literally the truth, if you are not going to take advocacy for your health, then you don’t get to complain. Cause nobody’s going to do it for you.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

I will buy that. And you just reminded me of something, that I see the challenge that some people face when trying to go from being unhealthy to being healthy. And that is, as we touched on earlier, the paradox of plenty. There’s so many choices. I’ve seen some of my closest friends say, “well, I know I’ve got heart issues, but there’s just so many opinions on what I should eat and what I should take and what I should do [that] I can’t sort it, I’m just going to go see my cardiologist and get on a statin.” And nothing against statins in particular. But if there’s no other consideration of [your] cholesterol profile, [your] cardiovascular risk, [your] lifestyle. And [you’re] just going to the cardiologist, who they do certain things great, sure, definitely, but when it comes to prevention, a conventional cardiology practice is not built around prevention. There may be some for which they discuss. But […] sadly, this is one of the limitations financially of conventional medicine is that system isn’t built around and highly incentivized to be preventative.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

So the onus is on the consumer and it can be daunting. I totally understand that. But like with anything else, there’s a learning curve. And if you keep at it, day one, holy cow, look at all these different opinions. But week three, you’re starting to see, okay, these opinions seem to cluster into maybe three general camps. Okay. I’m starting to wrap my head around this. And as I’ve been doing this, a few voices seem practical, right? They’re not hardcore keto or hardcore vegan or hardcore statin, but they seem to acknowledge the benefits, the limitations, they’re not dogmatic, or at least they don’t appear dogmatic, and okay now I think I’ve found a couple people that I’m going to follow predominantly. And before you know it, maybe a month in, you’ve found a few people that you trust. Maybe someone you can go to see directly for consulting and you’ve gotten through that uncomfortable period. And now you can really take your health in your own hands. And all you have to do is just get through that discomfort of going from knowing nothing to getting through the array of opinions. But it’s not incredibly difficult with just some consistent effort for a few weeks.

Michael Anthony:

Yeah. I mean, you’re spot on. And so that fortune 10 company I used to work for—I won’t say the name, but they’re a health insurance company and everybody in America knows about them—and I can promise you this, they only want you to be sick. And because it is not preventative, it is about maintenance. And it is about getting you back on the script. And it is about making sure that you fall under the category of reasonable and customary and so on and so forth. And so, especially if you can make preventative measures in your life…It’s fascinating to me. So I worked for this company in the early two thousands. Obamacare had not come into place. We were not yet helping people who had preexisting conditions. We were, in fact, excluding everyone. One day this woman called me and she goes, “you’re the sixth person I’ve called today. I talked to the state, I talked to my husband’s employer. We missed our cutoff to get added.” And she goes, “nobody will help us. My little boy has leukemia and I can’t afford to pay for this.”

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Oh gosh.

Michael Anthony:

And that night I actually went home and I decided to quit that job. The next morning I walked in and I quit. And after doing that job for six years. And understanding the truth about health insurance, in America anyway, is that they want you sick so you buy the product. But the second that you’re sick, they’re not going to take care of you. You have to recognize that you have to take care of yourself first. Because people are relying on prescription drugs, they’re relying on get-fixed-quick things, and the truth about it is it’s diet, it’s nutrition, it’s sleep. And so at one point—and again, speaking of the advocacy—I became a certified life and health and nutrition coach through ACE because I was like, “oh, I need to figure out really how the body works and how nutrition works and macros and micros and all that stuff.” Because one of the biggest fears that I have is getting sick to the point that I have to rely on an insurance company, because that’s ultimately what they want. And it’s an unfortunate truth about this country.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Yeah. And to clarify one thing—and feel free to disagree with me here if you have a different perspective—I think that the system benefits from people being sick but I don’t think it’s correct to say that most people in that system want people to be sick. Like when you were in that system, you didn’t want people to be sick. But the way the incentives are pointing…I guess we could say the system wants that because of profit incentives. Because I know some of the people listening to this are probably hospitalists or people working in that system, so we’re not pointing the finger at you, or at least I think we’re not, but it’s more so at the way, the incentives dictate behavior.

Michael Anthony:

Yeah. Yeah. No, it’s very much a generalized statement around the behavioral practices of gigantic corporations. Not individuals, because that would be nonsensical.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

You mentioned techniques that you found to be helpful and there’s a myriad of them. But one that could be a simple foundational therapeutic or support or practice would be meditation. And we’ve discussed in the podcast, I believe it was Asha Gupta who cited, research that found 20 minutes of meditation per day reduced all cause mortality. It may not have been all cause mortality. I think that was the outcome that was measured. So death from any cause. And this ties back to your earlier point, Michael, of if people are in this overly sympathetic state, what stimuli do they have to bring them to parasympathetic? Meditation would be one. Not the only one. Walking in nature, also a way of getting there. So I guess even more support for developing and cultivating habits that bring you into a more relaxed state of mind. But as someone who’s done so much here, are there a handful that you think, okay, here’s the person—again, we’ll just keep rolling with Mary Sue’s example—she’s confronted with all these choices. Are there a few that you think are better for her to consider starting with? I know that’s broad, but maybe to give her a little bit of a lighthouse in the fog here.

Michael Anthony:

Yeah. So I’m going to say something that may come off unexpected. I believe that one of the most important things that you can do is actually start with doing the thing that’s keeping you awake at night. There’s so much stress that we carry about our indecisions in life, right? It impacts our sleep, our digestion, our general health. Because you’ve had this, I’ve had this, we’ve all had this, that ticking in your brain that’s like, “do the thing.” Right? And that thing could be like, quit your job, leave the relationship, start the podcast, go to college…like whatever that thing is. And I found that that creates this massive sense of stress. And if stress is one of the biggest killers, if not the biggest killer on planet earth, then why would you not mitigate the risk of that stress by addressing that thing keeping you awake?

Michael Anthony:

Because of course, dude, you have journaling and meditation and therapy and all of those. But we all know those. Everybody tells us that stuff all the time. But I think one of the missing elements is the fact that if we’re not addressing that thing that is impacting our life negatively, and it could be a positive thing that we need to do, but it’s impacting our life negatively by taking away from our sleep, by causing massive stress load, by it’s literally every moment that you’re in silence that pops up in your head, right? My thought is, address it. Address that thing, remove that level and that impact of stress in your life. Because you know this…I won’t put words in your mouth. I will assume that you probably will understand what I’m about to say, the moment that I step into meditation and I haven’t dealt with my life, that’s the only thing I’m thinking about.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

The first thing that pops up. Absolutely. Yeah. That’s very well said.

Michael Anthony:

And so I think if you can start there, and it’s going to be difficult, but it’s through the difficulty that we grow and you learn. And in that difficulty and in the struggle of it, and struggle means discomfort, right? Then in that discomfort of making decision that you know is going to change your life, then you’ll have the freed up mental capacity to address the other areas of your life that need your concern.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Hi, everyone. If you are in need of help, we have a number of resources for you. “Healthy Gut, Healthy You”, my book and your complete self-help guide to healing your gut. If you’re not a do-it-yourselfer there is the clinic—the Ruscio Institute for Functional Medicine—and our growing clinical and supporting research team will be happy to help you. We do offer monthly support calls for our patients where I answer questions and help them along their path, health coaching support calls every other week, and also we offer health coaching independent of the clinic for those perhaps reading the book and/or looking for guidance with diet, supplementation, etc. There’s also the store that has our Elemental Diet line, our probiotics, and other gut health and health-supportive supplements. And for clinicians, there is our FFMR—the Future of Functional Medicine Review—database which contains case studies from our clinic, research reviews, and practice guidelines. Visit DrRuscio.com/resources to learn more.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

You remind me of a couple different concepts maybe I’ll try to weave together here quickly. Victor Frankl I know speaks a lot about man’s search for meaning, how important meaning is. And I was having a conversation with a friend of mine the other day who he only works in spurts. So he works a lot for a month and then he has almost a month off. And I’ll see pictures on his social media. He’s in Costa Rica kiteboarding, and he’s here mountain biking. And I said to him the other day, I said, “gosh […] I look at your life and all this cool stuff that you’re doing and then I look at my life and I’m working so much and I guess I’m a little bit envious.”

Dr Ruscio, DC:

And his response to me was, jarring. He said, “Michael, I wish I cared about something as much as you do to where those things didn’t have the level of appeal. I’d love to have the amount of meaning in my life that you do. Because if I had that, then that’s what I’d be pursuing.” And [it] reminded me of a lot of Frankl’s work. So what I’m trying to tie that to is there’s such a premium for meaning. And it sounds like if someone follows your advice, Mike, doing that thing that keeps them up, there’s a good chance there’s going to be a lot more meaning behind that and there’s a huge value for that.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

And I think, especially when it comes to vocational work, if people can have more meaning in their vocation or just in their life in general, that is the wind in the sails that I know, for me, helped get me through not feeling well. I was so driven to do this thing I wanted to do that not feeling well was an annoyance I just shrugged off and eventually figured out. So for whatever it’s worth for people, meaning is, at least it seems to be, incredibly important and following Michael’s advice, there seems like one way of potentially getting more meaning in your life.

Michael Anthony:

I mean, that’s a beautiful synopsis of that. And I think an amazing correlation too. I’ve never really thought about it in that sense, but I think you’re spot on. I mean that’s just a…I couldn’t say it better.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Thank you. Well, I’ll take one on the board. So that, I think that’s awesome advice that you give people and even more foundational, I think, than something like meditation, right. Have that thing in your life that you want to do finally effectuated or at least, start the process of moving towards it. Are there any other techniques or therapies that you’d want people to consider early on in their exploration process?

Michael Anthony:

Yeah, that’s a great question. I think two things come to mind is, one, getting massive clarity about what you want to move towards. Not having clarity in your life is very dangerous because effectively you are in a rudderless boat just like aimlessly wandering and clarity will give you ability. I’ll give you a great example. Ultimately, the mission of Think Unbroken and everything that I’ve built is to end generational trauma through education and information in my lifetime. So that another kid doesn’t have a story like mine, right? So that that’s my north star. I have massive, massive clarity about that. And so that helps me set intermittent goals from where I am today to this lifetime journey. And so that’s doing podcasts, writing books, speaking on stages, coaching people, doing programs, blah, blah, blah.

Michael Anthony:

And so because I have that massive clarity about my top line, north star goal—which, and that could be anything, that could be being the best dad ever, get a college degree, start a thing—when you have that level of clarity, then every day you can do what I do and that’s, I sit down and I write my goals. Because when I sit down and write my goals that are filtered through this level of clarity about this north star, then that gives me the forethought about what activities I need to accomplish daily to move forward. That idea about stagnation and stuckness that is like permeating this culture, and you hear this all the time, people like “Netflix is killing your dreams.” No, you can still Netflix and live your dreams, but you need to have clarity about what you’re doing every single day so you have the space to create, to step into the Netflix. And I think people just have it backwards.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Man, you make such a powerful statement there with generational trauma. And that does tie into a lot of what [Gladwell] discussed in “Outliers.” You remind me also of, I went for a long walk last night and I watched the sunset on this footbridge in Austin by Lake Travis. And because it’s got a great view of the sunset, as you can imagine, there’s a lot of people there. And even though I was looking to have that bubble around me, someone permeated into my bubble, it was a father and his daughter and I couldn’t help it overhear some of their conversation. And he said to her, after she was complaining, “well, they don’t do this,” or “they don’t do that,” complaining about her friends, as I guess an adolescent will do from time to time to her father. All normal, fine and good.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

But his response made me feel so sad for the daughter, because it seemed like terrible advice…And it’s like, oh gosh, you’re going to your father for advice and I’m sure he is doing the best he can but he said, “honey, I look at friends as expendable.” And I was like, ooh, that just feels like not maybe the best way to answer that question. And it maps onto your point, which is, that’s not necessarily generational poverty, but he may have had some bad experiences with friends leading him to be one who doesn’t foster or harbor healthy relationships and maybe cuts people loose too early. And that could have been a flippant remark, but it made me sad to see someone young looking to get advice and, at least from the snippet that I heard, it was bad advice.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

And I’m sure that things like this tend to propagate from family to children and so on down the line. And especially cycles of trauma and abuse and neglect, there seems to be from my limited understanding a high tendency toward those being repeated. So I love the statement that you made and I love the mission to try to break that cycle because what a gift to give to people is not passing on all the bad habits that you were victim to when you were a child,

Michael Anthony:

I just don’t know what else to do. Like, honestly, man, I think about this a lot. It’s like, and I hate to say it but it’s true, like I was built for this. And as much as it was painful and the things that I suffered through, I hope and I pray that I’m going to be able to create a massive enough change that other kids don’t have to suffer through that. I don’t know what else to do because I’m so driven by it. Every day I have to. I look down at my hand and I’m like, “oh, this is the finger that was cut off by my own mother.” And I think about this idea hurt people, hurt people. And I think deeper about that being okay, like how was her mother and her mother and her mother before her and fathers and so on and so forth.

Michael Anthony:

And you’re faced with a choice, like really it is a choice. It’s be the change that you want to see in the world. And a lot of people talk and not enough people act. And ultimately, I don’t know if I’ll succeed or fail in this endeavor, but I pride myself in the effort of the day-to-day. Because the goal is nonsense, if you really think about it, right? Like that’s a practical, it’s improbable, impossible. Hell, it’s probably irresponsible, right, to dedicate my life to this. But that’s not going to stop me. And my hope is just having these conversations, giving people a little bit of insight of possibility in their life, will help change the tide. And it’s not because I’m a martyr, because I promise I’m not. I one hundred percent put myself first and I love my life and I get to do something incredible and that’s to serve people.

Michael Anthony:

And every day I get messages, emails, DMs from past clients, current clients, future people. They’re like, dude, that thing you talked about, nobody talks about, or it changed my life or it saved my life, which is really fascinating because I’ve never saved anyone’s life but my own. The only thing that I ever do is give people the tools that have worked for me. And my attitude and my intensity and the way that I operate, like I know I’m not for everybody, but if we can have these conversations, then we get to make a ding in the universe and that’s the mission.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Love it. No, I absolutely love what you’re doing. And I would not be surprised if there was some people listening to this right now who this resonates with and could probably use some help and some guidance on this path. Where would people or how are you interfacing, specifically, if you want to share some about that with us? I think some people would definitely love to hear more about that.

Michael Anthony:

Yeah. I’m everywhere on social @MichaelUnbroken. And you can check out everything that we do if you go to ThinkUnbroken.com. That’s where you’ll find the Think Unbroken podcast, where you’ll find courses, there’s all kinds of free stuff out there, all countless hours of education. No one could probably consume it all, but it’s all at thinkunbroken.com.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Awesome. And then you also have a one-on-one coaching offering?

Michael Anthony:

Not currently because it’s packed out, but we have group coaching. I have a six week coaching program that’s just built into an app. You can actually download the ThinkUnbroken app on the iTunes or Android store.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

How’s the group coaching? That’s something, I mean, if you don’t mind me asking, I could see that being powerful for people because I think, more so for men probably than women, they tend not to talk about stuff like this. But hearing other people going through similar stuff makes it seem less like, “oh, this is a cross I have to bare alone.” How’s that going? I’m assuming well, since you’re doing it. But [I’m] curious, any insights or observations you would share there?

Michael Anthony:

No, you’re spot on. I mean like it’s because you can do it on your own, and trust me, the people who come into my one-on-one, they have incredible amounts of success, but I think when you can be in community, it just helps you feel further not alone. Right. and we live in a weird country, a weird world that’s ostracized to an extent, especially as technology becomes more at the forefront of our day to day. And people seem to think that they’re alone. And I’m just like, “well, that’s nonsense because there’s like 8 billion freaking people on planet earth. It’s just you’re not putting yourself in the right communities.” And so one of the big things I wanted to do was create a community where people could come together and go through this process in tandem. And that has held very well. I mean, typically we’re around 30 to 50 people. I do it a few times a year. And you can just watch the shift. Like I can count it, wind my clock to it. Just watching and knowing when people are going to have this massive eye opening moment. And they do it together and that’s powerful.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Yeah. That’s fantastic. Well, Michael, I have really enjoyed the conversation. I love the work that you’re doing and for our audience, again, there’s probably some for whom this is deeply resonating, great resource for you here. And Michael, again, enjoyed it and really glad that you’re doing the work that you’re doing in the world.

Michael Anthony:

Yeah. It is my pleasure, my friend. Thank you for having me.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Yeah. Thank you again.

Dr Ruscio, DC:

Thank you for listening to Dr. Ruscio, DC Radio today. Check us out on iTunes and leave a review. Visit DrRuscio.com to ask a question for an upcoming podcast, post comments for today’s show, and sign up to receive weekly updates. That’s DRRUSCIO.com.

 

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